S8 Vacuum system

[RXHEAVEN]

OK I'm going to add to this as time permits to make it better..

Twin Turbo boost problems?
Misfiring under load, coughing, no boost up high or intermittent boost?
Welcome to Fun Times (I spent the first 4 months of FD ownership swearing and banging my head over this sort of stuff).

What I suggest is getting the car well and truly warmed up, if it takes extreme heat to bring the problem on then give it a good thrashing.
Then get straight home, get the bonnet up and get the UIM popped off so you can access the solenoids for testing while they're hot.
More often than not, they begin to open circuit or partially fail when hot, then when they cool down they begin to work again so it's pointless trying to troubleshoot when they're cold. Just get some good gloves and have your tools and multimeter ready.


The vacuum system that controls the sequential twin turbo setup in a series 8 is different to the series 6 and 7.

The big difference being that all the turbo related solenoids in a series 8 are mounted into a single solid housing (with the exception of two which are mounted adjacent to it.) The purpose of the housing is mainly to cut down on the number of vacuum hoses used, since it has air paths moulded into it, and the solenoids all click into place and seal with rubber grommets. Most of the diagrams you will find on the internet are not accurate when it comes to the series 8. The basic principals are the same but you won't have any luck tracing things using these older diagrams.

All of this sits underneath the UIM (Upper Intake Manifold).
I will explain how to disassemble all of this when I revise this post (time permitting)

Below is the older S6-S7 vacuum diagram just to show how complicated things are (but as I say, you won't find all of these vacuum lines under the hood of an S8).
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6512/vacuumhosediagram28ssdz8.jpg

EDIT- thanks Kiwi FD3s RS for this new S8 Vacuum diagram below, however text is Japanese but still handy, thanks!
http://www.fdowners.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=697&d=1220440720

UIM (Upper Intake Manifold) Removal
Ignore the other markings on this photo, just remove all the bolts/nuts circled in blue to get the UIM off.
Don't forget the earth strap connecting to the firewall.
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8726/uimremovalmv5ly6.jpg

UIM (upper intake manifold) tilted up out of the way
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6461/mattsparty022fb8.jpg


Solenoid housing located below UIM (visible once UIM is tilted up or removed)
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1197/mattsparty024markedxx2.jpg
Keep scrolling down... (I was limited to 4 pics per post so had to break this up)
...
..
.
more below

[RXHEAVEN]

A closer pic of the top of the solenoid housing (colour coded plugs connect to each solenoid)
I suggest whenever you have NON-colour coded plugs that you mark with a paint marker before unplugging
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9330/mattsparty030lx3.jpg

Solenoid housing before pulling apart
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/1883/solenoidhousings8mv8.jpg

Solenoid housing- pulling it apart (good luck!)
Just carefully wiggle the skinny side sections away from the centre, once these are off you can them gently wiggle the larger top and bottom sections apart.
Make sure you don't lose any rubber grommets as they are crucial to sealing the whole system up, and take careful note of where everything goes.
Once you have the whole thing apart you can individually remove any of the solenoids for further testing or replacement and you can also replace two of the check valves (please don't ignore this part thinking you will just do it later).
To remove the solenoids just push down on the black electrical connectors and they will just slide out of the top of the housing.
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1262/mattsparty034de9.jpg

[RXHEAVEN]

Check valves
These are very very important so don't ignore investigating these or you will kick yourself.
Your boost problem could all be related to just one check valve blocked or blown apart (I had a blown one causing my chamber to bleed all vacuum off).
Basically they stop air going back the wrong way in the vacuum system.
If you're tackling the vacuum system just bloody replace all 4 while you're in there and be done with them.
Look on ebay or rx7club.com for Viton check valves, the whole set of 4 are about US$25 and they are 100 times better than the stock crap.

There are 4 (four) in total, listed below (1 & 2 are in the first photo below, 3 & 4 are in the second photo below).
1. Just behind the vacuum chamber (black plastic box in front of the UIM, 2mins to remove this).
2. Directly underneath the middle of the UIM (pull the UIM off or at least unbolt and tilt it up to access, 5mins-45mins depending how familiar you are).
3. Inside the solenoid housing (must pull apart to access).
4. Inside the solenoid housing (must pull apart to access).
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/9336/rx7checkvalves005bwn6.jpg
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/300/mattsparty032am0.jpg

4mm silicone hose
Buy about 4 metres of good quality 4mm silicon hose, I bought SARD brand because I never ever want to do this ever again, ever!
<<Coming soon>>

[RXHEAVEN]

Someone asked for more info about testing the solenoids once you get to them...

What you need to do is get a multimeter set to resistance mode, stick one probe on each of the two metal pins on the back of each solenoid. You will see the pins once you pull all the plugs off, so you don't actually have to remove them from the housing. The resistance should be within a certain range (approx between 35ohms and 45ohms when hot). Usually when a solenoid dies it will read 50ohm or higher, worst case it will read OPEN CIRCUIT which basically means the electrical path inside the solenoid has burnt out and theres no connection at all, so the multimeter in that case would read zero or "O/C". Bear in mind that if you test a solenoid cold and it says 35ohms, it could still potentially being going way out of range when it's hot so I urge you to do all testing immediately after taking the car for a run to heat the engine bay up. Hope that helps

[LVRossi]

Awesome write up mate. You won't find this info anywhere else even on the mother forum. I'm about to tackle a vaccumm problem myself so I feel confident already.

[verbatimrx7]

excellent info -thanks.

[RXHEAVEN]

Link to thread about where to buy the Viton Check Valves---> http://fdowners.com/showthread.php?p=8788

[DMRH]

Worth noting is that the 16-bit control boxes do fail more often than the original 8-bit "seperated soleniods".

The reasoning is simple. "Heat" Its already hot enough under the manifold & with the 16-bit control boxes enclosed the heat through each soleniod is easily 30% higher.

Result = premature failure.

The "Charge control soleniod" is ON for 99% of its life span & switches OFF only for 2nd turbo operation so thats the one that will fail first. From memory, I think its the white plug soleniod.

REgards

[RXHEAVEN]

..interesting comment below from an s6 owner trying to fit s8 solenoids to his car. This was received on this thread I placed in parralel on the mother forum... I tried to link the buggers back to this site but they banned it GRRR :p

Thanks for the diagram, really appreciate it!. If there is splicing involved ill just transfer the solenoids to the ratsnest instead (hoping there is'nt) . Dont like splicing the original harness. Its brittle as it is :)
************

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?p=8094932#post8094932
Posted by: billyboy
On: 04-15-08 06:56 PM

Think you'll find the connector is entirely different and the late solenoids slide and clip into place on the box, whereas the early ones have the integral plastic retaining clip for the nest. I'd expect the installation to look somewhat rustic.

If the intention is reliability, might be worthwhile investigating the up-rated solenoids, remotely mounted and sold by some bloke on here.....not sure of the username.

[ipohboy]

SOLENOID SYSTEM (BLACKBOX) GUIDE IN MSWORD

[LVRossi]

When you mention "6-Turbo control solenoid (1 of 2)"

Where is the 2 of 2?

[RXHEAVEN]

towards the drivers side of the vacuum chamber that sits in front of the UIM.
I think you have to either tilt the UIM up out of the way or pop the intake pipe off before you can see the other 2 solenoids that aren't part of the main solenoid housing, can't remember 100%

[ipohboy]

When you mention "6-Turbo control solenoid (1 of 2)"

Where is the 2 of 2?
The only solenoid that is mounted on the ACV assembly. One of the vacuum nipple of that solenoid will go to nipple number "8" on the black box. The other nipple from the solenoid will go to the turbo control actuator.

[LVRossi]

Ah yes I know what your talking about now. Behind the vac chamber theres two connectors, one controls the wastegate and the other the turbo control I believe.

I remember this as I ran an aftermarket boost controller on my previous car and you had to disconnect these two connectors.

[ipohboy]

Ah yes I know what your talking about now. Behind the vac chamber theres two connectors, one controls the wastegate and the other the turbo control I believe.

I remember this as I ran an aftermarket boost controller on my previous car and you had to disconnect these two connectors.

NO. That's turbo PRE-control solenoid.

If you look at the above picture with solenoid and the numbering, the 2nd turbo control solenoid is located NORTH of the orange solenoid and is mounted on the ACV assembly.

here it is:
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7779/blackbox1gd0.jpg

[RXHEAVEN]

What series is your FD?? Mine is s8 and I'm 95% certain there are two solenoids mounted next to each other, not too far from the front vac chamber, my memory of exact location is slightly hazy, but I remember two plugs to solenoids that were not in the main housing... :confused::confused::confused: Maybe I will take a look this weekend to confirm

[ipohboy]

What series is your FD?? Mine is s8 and I'm 95% certain there are two solenoids mounted next to each other, not too far from the front vac chamber, my memory of exact location is slightly hazy, but I remember two plugs to solenoids that were not in the main housing... :confused::confused::confused: Maybe I will take a look this weekend to confirm
Yes there are two solenoids mounted next to each other infront of the UIM behind the pressure chamber (not to be confuse with vacuum chamber). They are Wastegate control and Turbo Pre-control solenoids.

LVRossi was asking about the two Turbo Control solenoids. No.1 is on the blackbox and No.2 is mounted on the ACV assembly.

[RXHEAVEN]

Link to more s8 vacuum pics/info http://www.fdowners.com/showthread.php?t=1494

[AW-FK]

Just a Quick question...

would installing an Electronic boost controller fix this also.. you dont need to test these boost solenoids..

cheers,

[LVRossi]

Just a Quick question...

would installing an Electronic boost controller fix this also.. you dont need to test these boost solenoids..

cheers,

Installing an EBC will only complicate things further. Your best bet is to make sure the turbo's work properly before you slap this on. Even if it means you spend a day working on it, it'll save you time in the long run.

[ReSeven]

guys, can anyone please confirm that ports 4 and 5 on the solenoid box corespond to the right points on diagram... coz i am suspecting that they should be the other way around (lukes link few posts up l- links to other vac diagram 8th photo down the hose out of metal tube - when i traced it on mine its going to charge relief not the secondary chamber side..nipple behind charge relief hose)...

cheers...

[RO7OR_BOY]

im re-doing the whole rats nest i want to do it all at once so i never do it again lol

would anyone know the following?
-price of solenoids and where to buy?
-how much hose i'll need
-check valves-already sourcing viton ones..
and if i missed anything please let me know..

basically main thing i need is price and where from loll

cheers in advance

[ReSeven]

Poofs can anyone who has twins working properly confirm for me... from photo in following URL:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/takix/S8%20Vac/vac001.jpg

where ports 4 and 5 go to....count the dots to track hoses...

[RXHEAVEN]

I am definately not pulling that bastard system apart again to find out for you haha

[ReSeven]

luke, can u just trace for me the hose starting from charge relief valve(brown) to whatever metal hose (no need to open anything) - a photo be good from that side....

[ReSeven]

cunts, would the circled solenoids be the ones we can use from RX8 on our intergrated shit box....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/takix/S8%20Vac/RX8.png

PS... anyone can confirm my requests few posts above...

[verbatimrx7]

wheres tthat parts catalogue from?

[ReSeven]

Mazda Dealer - i told the bloke send me a screenie - but yeah if we can get hold of this software esp for the FD - be very sweet...

[kiwi fd3s rs]

The 18-741c part number doesnt match the part numbers on the Mitsubishi solenoids in the series 8 solenoid housing. I have had no luck buying these solenoids seperate through Mazda or Mitsubishi as the part numbers dont actually work and Mazda will only sell the whole housing $$$$ ( why bother printing a number on them then:mad:) . Ive been lucky enough to stumble across a few solenoid housings and make one good one from three. I would, if you have your solenoid housing out and apart, take one solenoid down to Mazda and try and match it up. I did but the part they thought mite be the one was ex Japan and i had to pay $$$ for it even if it was wrong.

[RXHEAVEN]

guys the ones I used for past 12months were recommended to me as being the exact same but a quarter of the price of our japanese version. They are off the 2001 Mazda 323 (and it has to be the 2.3L version 323). I can't remember the part numbers anymore, but i posted on Ausrotary if u care to search there... anyway ask for that exact model and engine size car and they are the solenoids you need.

If someone posts model numbers of the above I will know when I see it if it's the right ones

[ReSeven]

how about these babies - what u posted on Ausrotary...

KL01 18741 <--- this is the Mazda 323 1.8L same shyte as FD05..
FD05 18741 <--- this mutha f**ker is the RIP off shyte

[RXHEAVEN]

ahhhh yes... those are the ones... i ordered one of each, and those are what are in my car now.
From memory they were hella cheap compared to what Japang charge for the "official" FD3S replacements, and mines been running SHAWEEEET for over year since replacement

[kiwi fd3s rs]

how about these babies - what u posted on Ausrotary...

KL01 18741 <--- this is the Mazda 323 1.8L same shyte as FD05..
FD05 18741 <--- this mutha f**ker is the RIP off shyte


So the KL01 18741 is the cheapest effective replacement? Will ring Mazda and quote this part number ;)

[kiwi fd3s rs]

how about these babies - what u posted on Ausrotary...

KL01 18741 <--- this is the Mazda 323 1.8L same shyte as FD05..
FD05 18741 <--- this mutha f**ker is the RIP off shyte


Part numbers seem to be for different soleniods according to the posted parts diagram, but youve stated in the above there the same? and the fd05 18741 being the rip of but the parts catalogue price has is it 30 bux cheaper than the KL01 18741 ? tad bit confusing, but seems one of them will fit int the solenoid housing ;)

[RXHEAVEN]

i could be wrong but seems theyre all the same shit just a parts number scam... all made by mitsubishi anyway HAHA (have a mitsubishi logo stamped in them all)
Put it this way, i bought those mazda 323 ones as recommended by a guy who fixed heeeeeeeeeeeeaps of FD vacuum problems in NSW and it's been working fine for over a year so I think he was right :)

[ReSeven]

kiwi,

how much did you get quoted for??? me got after trade discount applied $175+GST for one....f**ken rip off anyway you cut it... I heard KIWI RE had it for $100 each. but since alec closed shop...missed out on that...

[kiwi fd3s rs]

Havnt priced up any with the above part numbers yet.. Managed to solve my boosting issues with some used solenoids, just heated them up and checked resistance to sort through the stuffed ones. The only solenoid i havnt replaced is the 3 way turbo control #2, got mazda stumped on this one :D


Had heard Kiwi RE were selling them for $100.00 each :rolleyes:

Are you having boosting issues?

[ReSeven]

yes I do - will PM you...

[dny80y]

hey luke how did u get the side parts off first??

i tried it last nyt and ended up snapping the plastic pins that hold it in place (circled in red.. and one side only..)

http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m426/dny80y/mattsparty034de9.jpg


im too scared i'll do the same on the other side...:(

to me it looks like the side parts are meant to come off AFTER the bottom part has been removed.. but it just wont budge!!!:mad:

the rest of the job is straight forward but pulling this cunt of a box apart is the worst...

any tips?? please im at wits end and i will cry very loudly :(

thanks

[kiwi fd3s rs]

At each end of the housing where the bolts go through to hold the housing down onto the engine, there are steel dowel pins, these need to be push/pressed/tapped out. Mine were as tight as a nuns nasty, once these are removed you can carefully seperate the housing by carefully working each end loose bit by bit. Be carefull not to twist it to much one way or you will risk snapping one of the solenoid pipes ( I made this mistake, luckily it was stuffed anyway). Once apart make sure you dont loose any of the rubber sealing grommets and Remove,check/replace solenoids and check valves :D. If you really get stuck ive got one apart i can take some pictures of this weekend

[dny80y]

mate thank you... i'll give it a shot 2nyt...

i didnt know i had to remove those steel dowels....


ur a legend..

thanks again

[dny80y]

Well i snapped a pipe.. Wasn't no the solenoid either.. I'm fucked. The thing just wouldn't come apart.. I really don't know how u guys did it.. So far i think in total i've spent approx 5hrs tying to take it apart and all i've managed to do is break stuff..

[LVRossi]

Snapped a few things? Thats not good to be honest. I didn't snap anything and I still managed a leak.

Worst thing that can happen is you fix everything, put her all back together and find out you still have the same problems - this time the housing is leaking because you snapped something.

Then you do it all over again as was the case with me :mad:

[kiwi fd3s rs]

Thats not good mate. You will have to track down a spare solenoid housing or buy a new one. I would have stripped it down for you but im in New Zealand, guess its not that expensive to post to and from these days. Let me know if you get stuck finding one, i may be able to find one in New Zealand, but may take abit of time.

[ipohboy]

Whoever still have their solenoid box parted out, can you snap a few pictures of all solenoids nipples and where those nipples connected to.

I want to know if the two nipples going to the ACV from the box can be join together by a hose when the ACV is deleted. I want to know exactly if those nipples are independent and don't have any effect on other solenoids.

[Signal 2]

Since I'm only familiar with the series 6 models, I'm not exactly sure of what you guys are dealing with when trying to get that box apart. But I use some stuff called PB Blaster for loosening stuck bolts and nuts. I also found out it's outstanding at loosening those stubborn wiring plug connectors that are stuck together from years of heat and dirt. It's safe around electronics and it actually displaces water, like WD-40. Would something like that work around that box?

[dny80y]

yeah i was afraid someone was gonna say i need a new one....

from what i've heard a new solenoid box goes for approx $600... $600 that i dont have... so im just gonna have to glue it and cross my fingers.. u live and u learn i guess...

btw im still trying to open the cunt.

rofl im goin crazy..

[dny80y]

hey guys.. sorry i feel like a broken record :o

just need to clarify.. when u guys say "wiggle it apart", are you guys using a any tools to do this (flathead etc) or just litterally pulling it apart with ur hands???

koz mines tighter than a nun's nasty... flathead moves it all a bit but that how i snapped one of the nipples already... and so far its has actually come apart........... about 1.5mm... and now its stopped moving again...:(

i have tried: WD-40; soaking in hot water; pulling; wedging; even feeding a rope through over and over to spread pulling load evenly throughout the box. ALL TO NO AVAIL!!! (maybe im just a retard.. i dunno)

im getting desperate and running out of time (Syd RR Tune on 28th). so if ANYONE, ANYWHERE, has ANY tips whatsoever, please let me know...


thanks again to the guys who have tried helping thus far.

[Signal 2]

Damn. And I thought that my series 6 rast's nest was a whore's nightmare. I always envied you guys with that box.

[ipohboy]

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7075/d1le0.jpghttp://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3956/d2kn7.jpg (http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7075/d1le0.jpg)

Can someone with good working sequential series 8 take a look behind the lower intake manifold , there are the three metal piping ( I circled in both diagrams) which are connected to CRV,CCV and secondary turbo piping. It seems both diagrams above don't have the same routing .

I want to confirm where those 3 metal hoses ( top,middle,bottom) are connected to (crv,ccv, secondary turbo piping).

Even the bracket for the 3 metal hoses illustrated differently in both diagrams. One diagram showed the bracket attached to the top metal hose, other showed it is attached to the middle metal hose????:D

help me confirm.

[kiwi fd3s rs]

yeah i was afraid someone was gonna say i need a new one....

from what i've heard a new solenoid box goes for approx $600... $600 that i dont have... so im just gonna have to glue it and cross my fingers.. u live and u learn i guess...

btw im still trying to open the cunt.

rofl im goin crazy..

Your just wasting your time trying to glue it, surely you can find a second hand one in Oz?

Ive pulled quite a few housing apart and never used anything but my hands:)

[ipohboy]

The diagram i posted is correct, which is the first one you have.. Have just finished putting mine all back together. Follow the numbers on the pictures i have up loaded and youl get the right routing. ;)
The 2 diagrams with numbering hose end you posted was made by me on the first page.
I have doubt when looking back again and comparing both diagrams from the parts catalog vacuum diagram and with your uploaded vacuum diagram (both japanese).

If you look back on both diagrams and follow the top metal hose, you'll find one is connected to the secondary turbo piping which follows the hose end diagram, but the other diagram shows it is connected to the crv?

but if you 100% sure the hose end diagram with numbering is correct, then I'll follow my original routing :D. I don't want to make a mistake and share wrong info with other people....:o

[kiwi fd3s rs]

The 2 diagrams with numbering hose end you posted was made by me on the first page.
I have doubt when looking back again and comparing both diagrams from the parts catalog vacuum diagram and with your uploaded vacuum diagram (both japanese).

If you look back on both diagrams and follow the top metal hose, you'll find one is connected to the secondary turbo piping which follows the hose end diagram, but the other diagram shows it is connected to the crv?

but if you 100% sure the hose end diagram with numbering is correct, then I'll follow my original routing :D. I don't want to make a mistake and share wrong info with other people....:o

O.k sounds abit confusing.. I found the vacuum diagram from the repair manual i posted a tad hard to follow in certain areas, so i used your one with the numbering system aswell as.

Your saying the Diagram i posted from the manual is different to the parts catalogue? what about your diagram? Guess we should clear this up!

[ReSeven]

aaahhh the same shit i wanted cleared up... kiwi - u say yours is running 100% sweet yeah....

[ipohboy]

O.k sounds abit confusing.. I found the vacuum diagram from the repair manual i posted a tad hard to follow in certain areas, so i used your one with the numbering system aswell as.

Your saying the Diagram i posted from the manual is different to the parts catalogue? what about your diagram? Guess we should clear this up!

The only way we can know which one is the correct routing for the 3 metal hoses is by asking an owner of good tiptop working sequential series 8 to look under the hood and tell us! That's why I requested someone to look at it on the previous post. :)

[kiwi fd3s rs]

Yea mine seems to run fine...

[ipohboy]

So noone ever cares to look under the hood? RxHeaven? It just a one minute job to confirm. CRV , CCA and secondary turbo piping -> top,middle and bottom metal hose????:(

[RXHEAVEN]

Hi mate,

Sorry been reeeeeeally busy, still in Brisbane but I will take a look for you when I get back to Perth on Friday. Perhaps send me a PM on Friday arvo to remind me?

[dny80y]

hahahahaha

after almost 2 weeks (approx 9 or so man hours) of trying to pull that box apart i FINALLY did it!!!!

fitting to viton check valves into the box was a bit hard as they have barbs to hold them in place and are wider than the piping in the box, so in true 'wog DIY' style i shaved off most of the barbs (leaving enough to ensure a tight seal) and fitted them. solenoid resistances are consistent @ 37-38 ohms so im sweet!!!

as for the broken nipple, i will be using a compound called "Q Bond" all my mate recommend it (both mechanics) for the job.

now to put it back together so i can start pulling apart the other side of my engine and fit my new dump pipe and cat section

thanks for everyones help!
:D:D:D:D:D:D

[ReSeven]

dny80y, good stuff - did you acutally do load test on solenoids - resistance check is 1 thing but you gotta make sure the solenoids don't have a stuck valve - I found two solenoids in my bunch that "clicked" when voltage applied - within spec of 38 ohms but when i applied voltage (so ports A & B routing now) pressurized it(13psi) with load(spare charge control actuator) as in below URL(pic with mitty vac+teed CCA & boost guage):

http://rx7.voodoobox.net/howto/solenoid_check/solenoid_check.html

guess what - removed voltage to solenoid and fucken thing released about 4psi and got stuck - apply voltage and release again a little more pressure released. - so the "usual test of just checking ohms and "clicking sound" ain't complete diagnosis. If possible do what is mentioned in above linky - may save you opening the shitbox again...

[dny80y]

thanks mate i'll keep that in mind...

i've had a set back last night so my cars still not together (mum threw out the vacuum diagram... fool) so yeah i'll definately check that too.

cheers

[dny80y]

hey so just to clarify, he's talking about testing/changing the solenoid with the brown pulg yeah??

http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m426/dny80y/blackboxdn3.jpg

[ReSeven]

So noone ever cares to look under the hood? RxHeaven? It just a one minute job to confirm. CRV , CCA and secondary turbo piping -> top,middle and bottom metal hose????:(

Ipohboy - I did a quick check by removing the pressure box and pulling out hose connected to port 9 of our shitbox (while engine is running) - NOW based on your diagram that port should be vaccum based - as its connected to the charge control actuator and during idle (&below 4500) the CCA should have the rod pulled in (thus closing off the secondary pressure side)- however I noticed that port 9 has no VAC at all....so i went and then removed Charge relief VAC hose and that had VAC present, removed hose on 2ndary turbo side and that had VAC also... so we now have while engine running


two hoses(ports 4 & 5 from s/box) with vac present but none of which is connected to CCA and port 9 with no VAC...

based on operating points these VAC line are the ones that need to be hooked to CRV & CCA (now which to which is the question....)

Can you confirm - if you have same outcome as above...???

what i have done is connected port 5 - to CCA, 4 to CRV & 9 to 2ndary pressure side... my reference POINT is from solenoid shitbox following your reference numbering... - went for test spin & got primary boost and secondary(didn't have proper boost guage but damn it pulled HARD..) ...now whether my ports 4 & 5 are hooked up to the right end points is what I need confirmed.... so yeah if someone can reference from s/box ports 4, 5 and what they hookup to would be awesome - going by metal hoses won't be enough...as need to know the s/box ends for certain...

EDIT***
well after checking spare s/box and blowing on 5 its defintely venting to port B of Charge Control Solenoid - so looks like :
5 to CCA
4 to CRV
9 to 2ndry Turbo pressure side.

[kiwi fd3s rs]

Well, bad news for me.. Car was going sweet for awhile after i replaced my dud solenoids with some good used ones . Now today its worse than before i replaced the solenoids . First turbo aint even boosting :(.. Guess im going to have to remove it all over again.:eek::eek:

Think im going to either buy a brand new solenoid housing $$$$ or try and track down some new replacements.

[ReSeven]

kiwi - did u see my post above - do quick check on port 9... with engine running... if you followed ipohs diagram - 9 shouldnt be connected to CCA...thats why no primary...(well it could be one of the things...)...

[kiwi fd3s rs]

wish it were that simple. my routing is correct, faulty solenoids!:rolleyes:

[ipohboy]

Ipohboy - I did a quick check by removing the pressure box and pulling out hose connected to port 9 of our shitbox (while engine is running) - NOW based on your diagram that port should be vaccum based - as its connected to the charge control actuator and during idle (&below 4500) the CCA should have the rod pulled in (thus closing off the secondary pressure side)- however I noticed that port 9 has no VAC at all....so i went and then removed Charge relief VAC hose and that had VAC present, removed hose on 2ndary turbo side and that had VAC also... so we now have while engine running


two hoses(ports 4 & 5 from s/box) with vac present but none of which is connected to CCA and port 9 with no VAC...

based on operating points these VAC line are the ones that need to be hooked to CRV & CCA (now which to which is the question....)

Can you confirm - if you have same outcome as above...???

what i have done is connected port 5 - to CCA, 4 to CRV & 9 to 2ndary pressure side... my reference POINT is from solenoid shitbox following your reference numbering... - went for test spin & got primary boost and secondary(didn't have proper boost guage but damn it pulled HARD..) ...now whether my ports 4 & 5 are hooked up to the right end points is what I need confirmed.... so yeah if someone can reference from s/box ports 4, 5 and what they hookup to would be awesome - going by metal hoses won't be enough...as need to know the s/box ends for certain...

EDIT***
well after checking spare s/box and blowing on 5 its defintely venting to port B of Charge Control Solenoid - so looks like :
5 to CCA
4 to CRV
9 to 2ndry Turbo pressure side.

Hi ReSeven,

Thanks for checking the connection. I am 300% sure that port 5 should belongs to the CCA, so no more confusion and it is confirm now that:
5 to CCA
4 to CRV
9 to 2ndry Turbo pressure side.
as you posted above.

I have edited my post on the first page, and change the shitbox guide to MsWord format (.zip).

Sorry to all the people that use my previous incorrect routing for the 3 hoses connection.:(
My early reference for numbering the connection was from the parts catalog diagram and now we know that it is wrong!

[RXHEAVEN]

OK ipohboy, as promised, here are photos and confirmation from my working s8 vacuum system (also uses the 323 solenoids :) )

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/6091/zoomzoom003pk5.jpg

CRV
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/1795/zoomzoom005no3.jpg

Manifold
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/4089/zoomzoom006fq0.jpg

Actuator
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6202/zoomzoom004xb7.jpg

Not bad for 1.00AM and boozy :)

[RXHEAVEN]

Hope that sorts you out, let us know how you go?

[ipohboy]

Hope that sorts you out, let us know how you go?
Thank you very much RXHEAVEN. You've made things clearer with all the pictures http://fdowners.com/images/icons/icon14.gif . Now that 2 people had confirmed the same connection, the confusion and mistake have been solved. :)

Thanks guys.

[spirit-uk]

Got my UIM off at the moment to, and can also comfirm what has been said above by Rxheaven!

[petros_rx7]

Hello I am new to this forum and I found it while I am searching how to convert 92 spec vaccum rack to 99+ vacuum rack.
I read this thread and I am ready to replace my old harness with new 99 spec emission harness.
My question is how to connect the 99 harness into 92 spec ecu.
Everything is clear about mechanics, thanks to rxheaven, but what about electric conversion?

[Craysus]

Hello I am new to this forum and I found it while I am searching how to convert 92 spec vaccum rack to 99+ vacuum rack.
I read this thread and I am ready to replace my old harness with new 99 spec emission harness.
My question is how to connect the 99 harness into 92 spec ecu.
Everything is clear about mechanics, thanks to rxheaven, but what about electric conversion?

92 spec ecu is 8 bit...99 spec is 16bit. Incompatible unfortunately.

Also, why are you converting? We are noticing a much higher failure rate on the 99 spec vacuum system in comparison to the earlier spec. The black box simply increases the heat load on the solonoids and causes the solonoids to fail more regularly. Furthermore the ability to quickly diagnose and replace a solonoid is made much harder.
If I was upgrading (Beyond a simple emissions simplification) I would use the aftermarket solonoid rack sold on the rx7club groub buy section frequently.

[petros_rx7]

actually I have replace the old 92 solenoids with mitsubishi 99 spec and now my system work great and never stack.
The only reason who I want to replace my vacuum rack with black box is that I think that with black box the sequential system have better response.
Otherwise with 99 spec solenoids my system work fine on old rack no problems at all.
Also one more question what is the different between mitsubishi solenoid B6AT and FEGC?

[akira_onboost]

could someone post up the part number for the actual solenoid housing.

trying to get a price from RHDjapan for a new housing.

i believe its only sold as a whole unit with all the solenoids and housing together from Mazda.

cheers
ray

[petros_rx7]

no you can order solenoids separately the mazda code for solenoids are B6AT-18-741 you will need 4 pcs and the other type is fegc-18-741,if i remember well, 3 pcs the first code I am sure that is correct what is the different between this two types I dont know.

[kiwi fd3s rs]

no you can order solenoids separately the mazda code for solenoids are B6AT-18-741 you will need 4 pcs and the other type is fegc-18-741,if i remember well, 3 pcs the first code I am sure that is correct what is the different between this two types I dont know.


No these part numbers do not work..

You can use the part numbers qouted previously in this thread if you want to purchase individual solenoids.

You dont really need to buy the whole solenoid housing, just purchase the ones you need once you strip the housing and check the solenoids.


Im thinking we might need to either clean this thread up or start a new one and lock it as a sticky...seems to be gathering alot of false information

[petros_rx7]

Sorry if that code does not work but I have mazda original box of solenoid and this is the code.
Also I have order my solenoids with that code.
I can check on japan epc the code asap.

[akira_onboost]

yeah guys, i was more after just the solenoid housing as it is cracked.
the 2 skinny side pieces is what im after if i remember correctly.

solenoids can be purchased separately but im quite sure you cant just buy the different pieces of the housing on its own.

ray

[spirit-uk]

could someone post up the part number for the actual solenoid housing.

trying to get a price from RHDjapan for a new housing.

i believe its only sold as a whole unit with all the solenoids and housing together from Mazda.

cheers
ray

Solenoid housing is 20-4B0, according to the factory parts manual.

[spirit-uk]

Picture of the unit from the catalogue:

[kiwi fd3s rs]

Ive got a spare used housing i may be willing to part with...Not sure what its worth?

[akira_onboost]

where can i get my hands on a parts catalogue for the version 5-6 FD.

use to be able to access the catalogue here:
http://13b.power.ne.jp/main_contents/index.html

but its been down for quite a while now

ray

[KILLA B13]

Some cunts have huge issues pulling the box apart.

You need to tap out the metal dowells/lugs on the side first. Then slowly edge the top and bottom sections apart. Then remove the side sections. The most annoying bit it then removing the top and bottom parts. After fucking around for 20mins I had it apart in no time by evenly bashing with a hammer using the following way:

[KILLA B13]

Have to clarify I did the above with a socket extension and a hammer! Not just a hammer LOL. Tried it with a screwdriver but it just chipped away at the plastic, took a little bit of a belting to get it undone too haha.

To be honest if you have the cash I'd recommend just replacing the whole box for a fresh start compared to the price of solenoids. You'd have the whole lot done in a little over an hour then.

Buy a 5 pack of coloured permanent markers to help if you can, I used coloured electrical tape which was a little more fiddly and cost a little bit of time.

Watch out for higher flowing viton check valves, stock ones are 'tuned' to ensure smooth boost progression from turbo lag to positive pressure. The vitons flow a huge amount more air and 'crack' open. I only replaced the two within the box and left the outside ones as Mazda intended since they were in good condition still and are easy to change. It was better this than risking too much pressure too early having any negative effects on knock - my car is totally stock.

[kiwi fd3s rs]

Interesting you point out the check valve issue, I noticed alot of boost spikes after replacing the factory ones with the Viton ones. I had boosting issues since i bought the car so never could compare it.

[Craysus]

Are people only noticing the viton valve problem on the S8? Nobody seems to report the same issue on the s6 models..

Perhaps the vitons with a line pill in place would fix the issue?

[RXHEAVEN]

I've been running Vitons for about a year and a half now, no issues at all on PFC base maps. No issues after the RIce Racing don mega tune up either.

Series 8 here

[KILLA B13]

Interesting you point out the check valve issue, I noticed alot of boost spikes after replacing the factory ones with the Viton ones. I had boosting issues since i bought the car so never could compare it.

Thanks kiwi, it's nice to have someone else recognise the problem. I get an instant spike on primary, which is not encouraging at all. It was way, way worse with all 4 in but I still get it with two in.

People say the Mazda ones are 'shit', but the Mazda ones are there for a purpose and flow certain amounts of air, while opening progressively. Considering buying two Mazda ones and whacking them in the box.

Sandy I'd imagine a lot of people have not so stock cars, hence they wouldn't notice as much.

[RXHEAVEN]

hey, you guys having boost spikes, did you replace EVERY check valve with viton replacements, or have you got a mix of Mazda genuine and Viton in your system (are you 100% sure too?)..

If they are different flow rates and you haven't changed every single one, then you might be creating bizarre pressure build ups or losses in the wrong areas

just clutching a straws here

[KILLA B13]

hey, you guys having boost spikes, did you replace EVERY check valve with viton replacements, or have you got a mix of Mazda genuine and Viton in your system (are you 100% sure too?)..

If they are different flow rates and you haven't changed every single one, then you might be creating bizarre pressure build ups or losses in the wrong areas

just clutching a straws here

I replaced every check valve with viton ones. That shit was scary spikes. So replaced one back to Mazda and it helped a little. Decided it was on the right track and took of UIM and went back to two stock and two viton. Which is where I'm at now, which still gives a primary turbo spike.

The Mazda valves keep the lines in the system under more pressure and progressively open for flow. The viton ones just smash the system with air hence the spikes.

I'm buying PFC to cover this I think. Hope the base map holds out all okay.

Seems like it had no ill effect on your car with compression etc Luke, and you certainly don't drive like a girl! LOL

[dny80y]

well from what matt was saying, spikes were actually worse when he had all viton valves in... apparantly now, with mixed valves, spikes are less prominent...

EDIT: lol beat me to it matt... :o

and also to add, i have all viton and spikes aren't uncommon, but they're not regular or frequent either so... i dunno maybe each car reacts differently........... like a person or something.... maybe our cars are alive and THEY bought US but we dont know it and we're their slaves........ http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m426/dny80y/wotthe.jpg

[KILLA B13]

LOL Danny!

I swear I am a slave to my car.

Yeah you covered it exactly. I don't think the vitons are as flash as they are made out to be, sometimes aftermarket isn't always better. I mean, they flow more which is sweet but some boost behaviour reported isn't the nicest, especially with respect to inconsistency.

[dny80y]

but i still say, for my car anyways, that they are alot better than oem...

and at the end of the day, if they're not right for ur car, $30 isnt alot of money to have spent finding out IMO...

:)

[KILLA B13]

but i still say, for my car anyways, that they are alot better than oem...

and at the end of the day, if they're not right for ur car, $30 isnt alot of money to have spent finding out IMO...

:)

No definitely not and far cheaper than OEM. The only scary thought is a very expensive dead engine due to $30 parts...

Does anyone have the part number for the Mazda ones? :o Didn't think so...

[dny80y]

No definitely not and far cheaper than OEM. The only scary thought is a very expensive dead engine due to $30 parts...

Does anyone have the part number for the Mazda ones? :o Didn't think so...


touche matt.... touche....

hahaha

[kiwi fd3s rs]

Well, thats why i was asking in my other thread if a boost controller has sorted the spikes for other peoples vehicles. Was told it would and wouldnt, so none the wiser, im reluctant to open all the hard work and time spent installing the viton valves, would rather try a boost controller, cant quite afford the 1300 hundred for PFC and 2-300 hundred dollar tune at the moment (just renovated the kitchen $$$$$)

[akira_onboost]

Solenoid housing is 20-4B0, according to the factory parts manual.

that doesnt seem to be the right part number for the solenoid housing according to RHDjapan.com they cant find anything under that number.

[KILLA B13]

Well, thats why i was asking in my other thread if a boost controller has sorted the spikes for other peoples vehicles. Was told it would and wouldnt, so none the wiser, im reluctant to open all the hard work and time spent installing the viton valves, would rather try a boost controller, cant quite afford the 1300 hundred for PFC and 2-300 hundred dollar tune at the moment (just renovated the kitchen $$$$$)

I couldn't find that other thread?

Yeah it's a huge expense for some valves, buying a Power FC. If it comes to that at least it isn't dangerous as Luke (RXHEAVEN) flogged his car on a base map with viton valves for 10 months or some shit.

Ripping it all open doesn't bother me that much, it's not that much of a job especially having done it once and basically nearly twice. I'd be buying coloured markers this time though to speed it up, fuck using electrical tape to mark the pipes again LOL

[RXHEAVEN]

OK so are all of you that experience spikes on viton valves NOT running a Power FC? Because I fitted my Power FC pretty much the same time as I replaced all the valves, so maybe that's the reason I don't get them as the Power FC is 100 times better than the factory ECU at boost control.

Also, I had a 100% stock exhaust, IC and intake while on base maps and with viton valves..
..so if you have an aftermarket cat back, or IC, or dump, or mid section, or pods, or any combination of those, that could be a factor too..

Mine + vitons + power fc on base map + nothing else changed = never spiked.
Even took it drifting on base maps down the race track, and my daily driving to/from work was very very spirited and in the whole 10-12 months of this I never ever spiked once..

Then finally I had the full SMB exhaust fitted and drove like a grandma for 1-2 days off boost until Rice Racing tuned it... now she flies hard :)

[RXHEAVEN]

at least it isn't dangerous as Luke (RXHEAVEN) flogged his car on a base map with viton valves for 10 months or some shit.


LOL and look how good my compression was on a 60,000kms engine when I got it tuned... beautiful !

I had so many mates going, you're on a base map wtf, you're going to blow up tomorrow guaranteed... 10-12 months later check out my healthy engine hehehehe

that's how I roll though

[KILLA B13]

Looks like Power FC is the answer for me then. Unless I source some Mazda valves. My car is totally stock at the moment, ECU and all.

[KILLA B13]

LOL and look how good my compression was on a 60,000kms engine when I got it tuned... beautiful !

I had so many mates going, you're on a base map wtf, you're going to blow up tomorrow guaranteed... 10-12 months later check out my healthy engine hehehehe

that's how I roll though

Your compression was better than mine and mine was checked after only 40,000kms!!

Power FC ordered, will fit it and wind boost back slightly, monitor the spikes and then get The Wizard (RICE) to tune it at a later date.

[KILLA B13]

Looks like Power FC is the answer for me then. Unless I source some Mazda valves. My car is totally stock at the moment, ECU and all.

Looks like Power FC was the issue and not the answer. Watch for knocks on the base map of the Power FC. Paul suggested that higher comp newer S8s can have this issue.

The car runs sweet as new on stock ECU again :D

[KILLA B13]

The most common form of S8 issues is the charge control solenoid. End of story.

Part no. is: B6AT-18-741

[Nekryd]

ive got vitons on mine with pfc and never seen a spike other than from the typical avcr uselessness [and non tune of both pfc/avcr]...

but running larger vitons than most here... and when it was on stock ecu... barely saw a spike larger than max 1 psi